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Lord Nino

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Mon 13 Aug 2012, 8:52 pm

All right its time I finally said my piece for the well "community" to see here. Because well I'm the guy who makes it possible to run it and ensure data safety and smooth operation of this server. Yeah I'm tooting my horn, deal with it. Now then, basically what I feel here is this. If the server comes back, awesome, great, wonderful, splendid, fantastic and crapfuckingtastical! But honestly, I have a few things to say here, and if it "offends" anyone I really don't care either because that's not my intent, I am just putting it on all on the table.

Now as Neko and Angel have stated we have tried multiple servers, the first being the modern WOD setting known as Brandenburg Virginia. It went belly up no one logged in and no one played hence we took it down. Neko then makes a second attempt with the Renaissance era in WOD Masks of Venice. Again, belly up no one logged in money, time and energy wasted yet again. Then take three, a totally new approach the world of Arizide, a brand new and unique fantasy world again gurgle gurgle gurgle like the Hood and then the Bismarck. No one logged in and played, so to save our time and my money it was taken down seeing as no one had an interest.

Ok now the factors I know involving these servers and apparent reasons "why" things went the way they did.

1. "I didn't know the setting and or didn't have information."

Answer: I will call absolute PONY PUCKS on this one to anyone who had said that. The information was on the forums EACH TIME a server was put up. Also the forum LINK was ON THE SERVER MODULE WHEN YOU LOGGED IN. If a person can't take a few minutes out of their fucking day to read, that's seriously no one else's fault but their own. Not to mention if something was unclear, that person could've ALWAYS asked the staff being Neko and Angel who were the lore masters of each setting. I admit I was not a lore guru on any of the settings but that wasn't my job either. My job was to maintain the actual physical side and keep the data backed up and the actual box running.

2. "The module was buggy and had lots of issues."

Answer: Yes, admittedly the modules were buggy and probably rushed. But keep in mind it was only Neko really doing the scripting, he's one guy and he's not a "script master". I helped anyway I could by building and trying to figure out scripts, but I'm a computer and network technician, not a programmer. Sorry the module's weren't perfect and yeah ok fine, more time could've been taken yes, I'll agree with that. But then if someone takes forever to "perfect" something then between real life and working on the module and testing the player base if any would lose interest since they waited forever. So I can see why it was "rushed". So honestly, you really have to look at both sides.

3. "Lack of DM events and a general direction."

Answer: Ok look people have LIVES outside of this, please understand that and a good plot takes time and so does planning DM events. Also this is the WORLD OF DARKNESS not DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. There is a HUGE difference between the two, in a D&D game the DM usually sets a general direction for the world and or campaign. Such as a war, plague, political conflict, and so on. In the world of darkness the story teller DOES do something similar but keep in mind this is a MMORPG server, not a table top pen and paper game. In a game like this despite the setting but more so in WoD it is my opinion that the players themselves, not the Story Teller or DM sets the direction of the players. Now in the Venice setting on the FORUMS ALL of the setting information was RIGHT THERE for people to READ and set their OWN directions in the world. The political warring families was a part of this setting, not to mention the incumbent warring factions native to the WOD setting, despite its era. And again as I stated earlier, if there were questions people could've read the forums, asked Neko and Angel or googled it themselves. I mean hell, if people can find plastic dog vomit on ebay and use google to find out exactly why Napoleon lost at Waterloo then they can use google to figure stuff out for a game.

4. Someone actually told me "People actually miss the server this time."

My reply to that: Ok I really don't get it, seriously I mean ok its missed but where was this "missing it" when it was actually up? Where was this "YEAH WHOOOOO HOOOO!!! YEAH!!!! ALL RIGHT!!! LETS BRING IT BACK!! LETS PLAY!!!" Enthusiasm when we HAD it running and DID plan PLOTS and EVENTS? I mean seriously this is like the logic of saying "Wow, I really miss that restaurant I never ate at!" I mean this whole thing seriously confuses me to be honest. I mean yeah ok its "missed" and people want to play and so forth, but its like a day late and a dollar short you know? Where was this energy when it was up? And that's what spurred me on to write this. Again if I offend you, too bad, that's not my intent, I'm just being honest. Because honestly I don't want to waste OUR time and MY money into doing this again where its just an empty server.

Something else I have to say just to let it be known. People may not think it takes a lot of "work" to host the server, well let me tell you something. I don't know how most people do it, but I actually do it professionally. I spent 300 Dollars on a Microsoft Technet subscription and used Windows 2003 Server R2 then Windows 2008 Server R2 for the box to actually use a true server operating system. Having to learn the ins and outs of it took TIME to make it run as it should. Not to mention MONEY to get the operating system. When a component goes apeshit and goes boom who ya gonna call? That's right, not the Ghostbusters, its me. When lightning strikes causing a power surge and the Hard Drive goes the way of a beached whale and you lose ALL of your character data? That's right, me again. What happens when it goes cuckoo cuckoo and starts randomly restarting and makes the master file table or the partition go ape shit and the data goes kaplooie? Again, me.

Running a server 24/7/365 sometimes 366 costs me money in electricity as well. Also running a computer constantly like that causes issues in the operating system over time and eventually causes components to fail even quicker because its running constantly. Have I ever asked for paypal donations? No. Has anyone ever offered to help? No. The only people to EVER offer me any kind of financial help was Neko and Angel for hosting it to pay for my electricity which I do appreciate from them. Oh one more thing, for data backup in an offsite location, the medium for which that data is stored on be it DVD, CD, USB Drive, External HDD or another computer guess what that costs? More of MY TIME and MONEY. So yeah, don't waste our fucking TIME and MY MONEY. If I offended anyone too bad, it wasn't my intent and if someone is offended, they probably deserved it. This rant is not directed at anyone in particular before someone thinks it is, but its the total over all frustration of the bullshit we've been dealt every time we ran a server and we got an umbrella up our asses and then it was opened, each and every fucking time. And that is far from fair, that's all I have to say on this subject. I'll host it, I'll hope its not a vain hope of it actually working out this time around.

-8-19-2012 I proofread it so it looks proper, yay.


Last edited by Lord Nino on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 9:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Lord Nino

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:12 pm

Forgot to mention one more thing I think is important. This game is how old? 2002 it came out, I was 16 working at Pizza Hut and purchased and built my first computer I actually owned. What of other games out there? Such as the massive amount of MMO's and the current WoD MMO coming out? Our player base IF any an I say IF because its always been an IF that never WAS. Will have a good chance of going bye bye. Just food for thought here.
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Lord Nino

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sun 19 Aug 2012, 9:53 am

Well I noticed no one replied after my rant, don't know if I scared anyone off but heres the deal anyway. Not sure when Neko plans to have me put the module up but I have a working server computer at the office so minimal time and money are lost. Thankfully we pay flat fee's for our rent and internet so that saves us some money here running the server. The computer at the office is ready to go I just need the module and all that jazz. So whenever Neko is ready to go we're good for the two week trial run.
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Nuwisha

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sun 19 Aug 2012, 12:37 pm

I think that rant pretty much killed anyones ideas of having the server back, It'd be great if I would come back. Think there just needs to be a fair bit of planning put into it.
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Lord Nino

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sun 19 Aug 2012, 1:26 pm

Well I merely stated the facts of what has happened and what is happening now. Yeah my style was abrupt and possibly brash but whatever. I even explained in said rant it was the frustration of all of the crap this entire staff myself included has endured throughout the servers we've run. That was truth, not just some angry person ranting and raving about how he had a bad day at work. And could you please clarify "planning"?
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Nuwisha

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sun 19 Aug 2012, 1:44 pm

By planning I ment make the server feel more like an established server not a seat fo the pants procedure. The server didnt have the things that kept players on other server like low lvl quests that showed you the ropes, it didnt have merchants that were practical. I know the merchants were meant to keep things more realistic for the world with limited magic items and the higher pricess but it kind encouraged power leveling just to buy +1 items. I know I've mentioned this point before but the server was getting a complete overhaul every other month it seemed. I mean first it was masks of Venice then it went to modern then it went back to vienice then it got switched to Arizide. It makes things a little hard to stay with if you lose your characters, forum posts and work every so often. Kinda makes playing out those stories that the staff wanted to happen moot point because theres a history of things suddenly changning why would someone want to get into a long term story like that?

I'm just pointing these things I because if the server does come back it wont last with that sort of thing going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sun 19 Aug 2012, 1:52 pm

Honestly PLENTY of time was given between Module changes... Plenty of time, when the server had reached a population of 0 to -1 for more than a month we just wanted to take it down completely but instead we opted to changed the setting to something people were more Familiar with. (Modern) then when that had gone with the dodo, (mainly because of Tilese issues, Model issues, and Other things THAT COULD NOT BE RESOLVED, with scripting.) We were fed up with the limitations and decided to go with a High fantasy approach which people did enjoy, until of course the fall months had come and interest had dwindled, But you keep telling me we didnt Plan any of this? ...And you want me to put up another module?

To be honest, I am glad Nino had that nice long Rant... its killed any sort of non-thinking WE MISSED THE SERVER attitude when none bothered to stick around, how could one miss something they didnt bother to attempt to enjoy?
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Nuwisha

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Mon 20 Aug 2012, 12:53 am

Alright, I'm done with this. Everything that's being done is geared toward keeping the server offline and being passed of as player's fault, at least thats how I'm reading it. I played when I had time there was only so much I could do alone on the server, I checked in on the forums, all that's happening right now is people trying to shoot down suggestions and ideas. If the server comes up great, but its clear staff doesn't want it back so consider this my signing out
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Mon 20 Aug 2012, 8:18 pm

Consider this server still dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Mon 20 Aug 2012, 8:57 pm

V.V welp, alls well that ends well? *will still stalk forum in immediate future*
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Tue 21 Aug 2012, 6:36 pm

Ended only because someone couldnt read my explanation, Yes.. Players do have a major power over if a server survives or not, if I see no reason to continue with the content because of lack of interest I will not continue it as it constitutes a waste of my time that I could be doing something constructive, I do this for the players not for myself.

but when I get attitude it makes me want to do this less and less, Scripting, Building, Maintaining it... Takes effort... lots of freaking effort. It easy to say, Oh it died because it was missing blah blah blah... Honestly, shut the hell up... You have NO CLUE what it takes to spend HOURS upon HOURS working on a 8x8 area...

And yes... this is pointed at Nuwisha.

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Tue 21 Aug 2012, 7:01 pm

Ooooooookay...

Point A-

Nuwisha, did anyone ever mention honey catches more flies than vinegar? 'cause you are acting like a three-year-old who's been told that no, you can't stick a fork in that socket.

Every time the modules were put up, it was in response to players *WANTING* it up then and there. To people knocking Nino's, Neko's and my MSN windows off of our computer screens with their "Is it up yet? Will it be up soon?" Each time it was CLEARLY stated that the server was in beta. Over and over again. Complete and perfect server seems to be what you're asking for. *Points to Ravenloft* There you go.

Point B-

Anyone who has ever put considerable creative effort into something is aware of how bloody draining it is. With that in mind, I am not about to support Neko and Nino- not to mention myself- pouring hours of effort into a module that will be empty in a month.

Don't bother deluding yourselves. It would be empty in a month.

As Nino has pointed out, there are literally dozens of MMORPGs on the market. NWN has been around for ten years. The player base is nigh-well zombified, and people are going to get frustrated, wanting MORE people to play with, and leave. Autumn is coming, which means school for a lot of people. That is another demand on time. New games are coming out, holiday season approaches... This is quite literally the WORST possible time to put a module up because the one month when people would be ON it would simply disillusion everyone. School would start, player base would vanish aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... we're back to square one.


Point C-

No one likes reading the same book over and over again. No one likes playing the same game over and over again. The module changes occurred in response to boredom on everyone's part. And there was plenty of warning each time. Yes, I get that it's annoying to remake a character, etc, etc. Been there, done that. Neko, Nino and I all lost characters. We lost story. We lost a LOT that we put effort into. (Point in fact, I know who was the most proliferative poster on any forum. Oh yeah... It was me. Did you think about THAT, Nuwisha, before making your accusation?) Starting over for everyone else? Is also starting over for us. Moving away from Arizide would be even MORE of a loss because of the sheer work put into making a new and innovative fantasy setting.

Point D-

I'm not arguing about this anymore. The servers had flaws. We GET that. Did we ever deny it? Nope. There was always a list of things that needed to be fixed, addressed and worked on. We were all fully aware of the fact that the modules weren't complete.
However, we can't script players. We can't build players in an area. We can't craft new players to come in and make everything all shiny. If you all really want RP? Are dying and desperate for it? Welcome to the text-based world. IM, email, forums- RP is available in any and every form. If you restrict yourself to NWN server, then you're doing it TO yourself. Want RP? Ping me. My contact info is available.

Until then? It's Neko and Nino's call. If they get a surge of desire for it, I'm there. If not, I'll remember NWN fondly and keep looking forward to the next game.
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Lord Nino

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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Tue 21 Aug 2012, 7:05 pm

All right time to say my piece, again to try and make sense of this and possibly get some answers.

Ok from what I'm seeing here it was a back and forth thing since my "rant". Well let me try to clarify some points here.

Nuwisha wrote: "Just a little side note/obersvation. Maybe if the server just stayed unchanged for a while to give it time for people to get on see whats going on and get things going. It did seem like big overhauls or changes came often"

He also wrote: "By planning I ment make the server feel more like an established server not a seat fo the pants procedure. The server didnt have the things that kept players on other server like low lvl quests that showed you the ropes, it didnt have merchants that were practical. I know the merchants were meant to keep things more realistic for the world with limited magic items and the higher pricess but it kind encouraged power leveling just to buy +1 items. I know I've mentioned this point before but the server was getting a complete overhaul every other month it seemed. I mean first it was masks of Venice then it went to modern then it went back to vienice then it got switched to Arizide. It makes things a little hard to stay with if you lose your characters, forum posts and work every so often. Kinda makes playing out those stories that the staff wanted to happen moot point because theres a history of things suddenly changning why would someone want to get into a long term story like that?"

My answers to that are a part of my "rant" which I clearly stated about the "rushed" or in this case "seat of your pants procedure" of the modules. Because I wrote: "Now as Neko and Angel have stated we have tried multiple servers, the first being the modern WOD setting known as Brandenburg Virginia. It went belly up no one logged in and no one played hence we took it down. Neko then makes a second attempt with the Renaissance era in WOD Masks of Venice. Again, belly up no one logged in money, time and energy wasted yet again. Then take three, a totally new approach the world of Arizide, a brand new and unique fantasy world again gurgle gurgle gurgle like the Hood and then the Bismarck. No one logged in and played, so to save our time and my money it was taken down seeing as no one had an interest.

Ok now the factors I know involving these servers and apparent reasons "why" things went the way they did.

1. "I didn't know the setting and or didn't have information."

Answer: I will call absolute PONY PUCKS on this one to anyone who had said that. The information was on the forums EACH TIME a server was put up. Also the forum LINK was ON THE SERVER MODULE WHEN YOU LOGGED IN. If a person can't take a few minutes out of their fucking day to read, that's seriously no one else's fault but their own. Not to mention if something was unclear, that person could've ALWAYS asked the staff being Neko and Angel who were the lore masters of each setting. I admit I was not a lore guru on any of the settings but that wasn't my job either. My job was to maintain the actual physical side and keep the data backed up and the actual box running.

2. "The module was buggy and had lots of issues."

Answer: Yes, admittedly the modules were buggy and probably rushed. But keep in mind it was only Neko really doing the scripting, he's one guy and he's not a "script master". I helped anyway I could by building and trying to figure out scripts, but I'm a computer and network technician, not a programmer. Sorry the module's weren't perfect and yeah ok fine, more time could've been taken yes, I'll agree with that. But then if someone takes forever to "perfect" something then between real life and working on the module and testing the player base if any would lose interest since they waited forever. So I can see why it was "rushed". So honestly, you really have to look at both sides."

Lack of planning? Seat of your pants procedure? Ok as you can plainly see in both of those points I brought up they specifically relate to that things WERE planned. The information was RIGHT THERE not to mention the modules yes were rushed and I agree with THAT point yes. But the reason why it was "rushed" and was buggy was to get things going before people said " screw this we don't want to wait forever." But the modules were planned out and even from the start it was always ALWAYS said it was a "beta" form as in yes its going to have issues. But we were working on it TOGETHER as a COMMUNITY feedback was valued and listened to. I also explained the reasons WHY the server wasn't "established" because of lack of interest when the player base went to 0 we said "ok well lets change it up then and try something else." But the server stayed up as long as we had players and then when it was MONTHS in a row of no one playing or using the forums Neko and Angel decided to try something else. So don't sit there and say how it wasn't "established" man because that's horse hockey.

And that "complete overhaul" every month statement? Dude we were trying to make the server fully functional and make it work correctly. Also adding in content, dungeons and so on. It was rushed, yes I will admit that but I explained WHY it was done in that fashion and as I said everyone knew going into it that the module was in "beta" form and was a work in progress.

Ok Nuwisha also wrote: "I think that rant pretty much killed anyones ideas of having the server back, It'd be great if I would come back. Think there just needs to be a fair bit of planning put into it."

I will answer to that as well. All right well its as simple as this, as I explained in that rant

And I said this in my rant which I thought EXPLAINED why I was saying what I was saying: "4. Someone actually told me "People actually miss the server this time."

My reply to that: Ok I really don't get it, seriously I mean ok its missed but where was this "missing it" when it was actually up? Where was this "YEAH WHOOOOO HOOOO!!! YEAH!!!! ALL RIGHT!!! LETS BRING IT BACK!! LETS PLAY!!!" Enthusiasm when we HAD it running and DID plan PLOTS and EVENTS? I mean seriously this is like the logic of saying "Wow, I really miss that restaurant I never ate at!" I mean this whole thing seriously confuses me to be honest. I mean yeah ok its "missed" and people want to play and so forth, but its like a day late and a dollar short you know? Where was this energy when it was up? And that's what spurred me on to write this. Again if I offend you, too bad, that's not my intent, I'm just being honest. Because honestly I don't want to waste OUR time and MY money into doing this again where its just an empty server.

Something else I have to say just to let it be known. People may not think it takes a lot of "work" to host the server, well let me tell you something. I don't know how most people do it, but I actually do it professionally. I spent 300 Dollars on a Microsoft Technet subscription and used Windows 2003 Server R2 then Windows 2008 Server R2 for the box to actually use a true server operating system. Having to learn the ins and outs of it took TIME to make it run as it should. Not to mention MONEY to get the operating system. When a component goes apeshit and goes boom who ya gonna call? That's right, not the Ghostbusters, its me. When lightning strikes causing a power surge and the Hard Drive goes the way of a beached whale and you lose ALL of your character data? That's right, me again. What happens when it goes cuckoo cuckoo and starts randomly restarting and makes the master file table or the partition go ape shit and the data goes kaplooie? Again, me.

Running a server 24/7/365 sometimes 366 costs me money in electricity as well. Also running a computer constantly like that causes issues in the operating system over time and eventually causes components to fail even quicker because its running constantly. Have I ever asked for paypal donations? No. Has anyone ever offered to help? No. The only people to EVER offer me any kind of financial help was Neko and Angel for hosting it to pay for my electricity which I do appreciate from them. Oh one more thing, for data backup in an offsite location, the medium for which that data is stored on be it DVD, CD, USB Drive, External HDD or another computer guess what that costs? More of MY TIME and MONEY. So yeah, don't waste our fucking TIME and MY MONEY. If I offended anyone too bad, it wasn't my intent and if someone is offended, they probably deserved it. This rant is not directed at anyone in particular before someone thinks it is, but its the total over all frustration of the bullshit we've been dealt every time we ran a server and we got an umbrella up our asses and then it was opened, each and every fucking time. And that is far from fair, that's all I have to say on this subject. I'll host it, I'll hope its not a vain hope of it actually working out this time around."

So I guess I'll sum up what I was trying to say there, we DO NOT want to waste our TIME and MONEY on doing this for a "community" that doesn't exist. If we had a real solid community then there wouldn't be this much skepticism over putting it up again and getting a working module. I was also asking basically for a real solid reason why we should bring it back. I mean is it really missed? If so and I'm asking again apparently because I still never got an answer is if its missed then why didn't anyone bother when we had it up? What was the deal? Why did it go kaput and now all of a sudden its missed? So I'll lay this questions out in order.

1. -Why should we bring the server back?

2. -If so, do we have a real solid community to back it up, who will play and use it and grow with it?

3. -If the server is really missed, why wasn't it played and used when things were going and online? Why the sudden change of heart?

4. -How many people actually WANT this back and are willing to be a solid community member? No bullshit, seriously I want to know.

Also one last thing Nuwisha wrote: "Alright, I'm done with this. Everything that's being done is geared toward keeping the server offline and being passed of as player's fault, at least thats how I'm reading it. I played when I had time there was only so much I could do alone on the server, I checked in on the forums, all that's happening right now is people trying to shoot down suggestions and ideas. If the server comes up great, but its clear staff doesn't want it back so consider this my signing out"

My answer to that: Um, who was geared towards shooting anything down or blaming the players? I covered ALL of the factors in my rant being a combination of EVERYTHING. And yes the players are a HUGE factor because as Neko said, if no one plays, why are we going to keep it up? That's a waste of time and money, duh. I was looking for answers, I wasn't shooting anything down. So I don't see what you're talking about man. We're discussing WHY we should bring it back, not "Fuck you anyway, we're not bringing it back." That isn't the attitude here and I'm pretty damned sure I never at ANY point said anything even CLOSE to that, neither did Neko or Angel. We just want to know WHY and if it's WORTH it. You want to sign off, that's your choice, but before jumping to conclusions and assumptions, get your facts first before making a decision and pointing fingers.

Anyway, those questions are for EVERYONE to answer, so please do so. Because this is YOUR server, if you want it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sat 25 Aug 2012, 8:18 pm

I havent checked the forums in a while, and have been given the URL recently, as well as got my password back, and after reading this, here are my answers :



1. I enjoyed the server very much, I just didnt have all the time in the world I wish I had.
2. I dont know, but I will play till the last day it is up if Im able to.
3. I had rl school and DMing on another server at the time to deal with, not to mention other rl things.
4. I want it back, and to paly


Not the strongest of arguments, but its what I have. I played Arizide more than any other form of the server. I arrived when it was just turning from the city of masks into Arizide, and I still found it to be lots of fun. Just to calrify, Id like Arizide to come back.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sat 25 Aug 2012, 9:05 pm

All right, thank you for your honestly that's what we want and need here. Also I like the fact you clarified what lore you want back. Please everyone else clarify what lore/world you want back like Tempest did, thank you. So that's question 5. What lore/world do you want to see? But its a good chance we may go with Arizide just to let you know.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this a thing?   Sat 25 Aug 2012, 9:48 pm

So, I made this thread as a thing checking on a fond memory of a long time that ended around a year ago. In the process, I may have accidentally stirred a borderline insane crusade and shattered the record of largest thread on this forum. I suppose "oops" is the proper response.

I figured I should wait for someone else to respond, and now it's happened, so here are my thoughts. The main reason I didn't respond to these questions yet is because I have trouble answering the first one. This is mostly because I understand how much of a hassle it is, and have witnessed the disappearance of all the players multiple times. As much fun as the server was, I don't want to make anyone go through that trouble unless they either want to or think it's worth it. The only thing I can think of to answer why it should be back up is that it was fun, and it was, at least to me. When thinking about what was said of not relying on NWN, I'm already in 5 weekly games this year. I don't need the server, even if I would like it around to use during the frequent moments when nothing else is going on.

2. I will play if it's back. I doubt there's a solid community to back it up, but it would be nice if there were.

3. I was on the Venice server nearly constantly. I would have been on the modern Virginia one more, were it not for the disturbingly frequent, strong thugs that mugged me there, though I was on there a lot anyway. I never managed to play on the Arizide server because I couldn't find it. After checking everywhere I thought it would be, I stopped for about a month, and looked for it again, and repeated the process until recently. As far as I can tell, the sudden change of heart doesn't apply to me.

4. I want it back and am willing to be a solid community member.

5. Honestly, I'm completely neutral on this one.
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